Stock Market Enhancement (with screenshots)

[David]

Will try to address this in the next patch.

[titi82000]

RougeRogue you are right. I have been manipulating the market in several ways. But the procedure you said is the most efficient and despite some people said it is not as profitable as we might think. This is wrong. I made billions just by manipulating the stock exchange mechanism.
I don't know who is coding the mechanism in the team but we should not be allowed to do so. In fact, if no solution is provided, the best is to disallow the possibility of controlling a second company at the second level (I mean you control a company B who is controlling C after buying all public shares issued). This is not realistic but at least it would disable the players the possibility to cheat by this way.

One of the solution is to change the price change mechanism after buying back shares. The price should not inflate but deflate so that any attempt to manipulate the stock prices would ridiculously lose a lot of money (in this case, company B would lose CASH so the expected stock price of B would decline so company A would at the end lose "accountingly" assets too by controlling B at 75% for instance). The price inflation mechanism after buying shares or buying back is the main cause of the existence of such cheating. THis is the easy way and it is not a fair price mechanism but at least it disables the attempt of such cheating.

The second solution is to setup a Market Conduct Commitee from the SEC which will identify such mechanism (let say you control C by controlling B who controls C, ok, but you are limited to a number of buybacks stocks or debt increasing according to a certain time, in fact you are limited in your actions). This is not realistic but will prevent the cheating.
Another way is to pay a fine equivalent to the cash made by this operation. This is however difficult to analyse between manipulation and investment, but let say, C is controlled by B then B sells all share of C with C being bankrupt before a certain holding stock time, then B will pay a fine being caught by the SEC for fraud. If C however is not bankrupt, and after B holds the shares let say 5 years, then this is fine as this is considered as a long-term investment. OK there will be always ways to cheat, but this will limit attempt to inflate the stock prices in a short period of time. At least you will spend 20 years to make it profitable, which at the end, is not really a such impressive return.
See more at http://www.inhouselegal.com.au/Complian ... Misconduct.
Cheers,
titi

[TraderRaider]

I have not read all the posts on this topic, nor do I have this version of the game, however, it seems to me that the mechanics of the stock buying/manipulating have been generally left intact since Cap I, where I first learned of them.

I agree with RogueRogue, (and any other players who came up with this), that the easiest way to stop game exploits, is to leave the stock price unchanged whenever a player and/or player controlled entity is involved, and not the "public". This goes for issuing stock as well.

To keep a player from bankrupting controlled companies, then perhaps only allow transactions involving stock buybacks when "the ticker" or game speed is moving at a speed of "2" or higher. This would allow time for any stock held by other uncontrolled corporations or AI players to be sold, as well as "normal" market price "corrections", by dropping the stock price before the player could instruct the controlled corporation to buy back its own stock at "vastly inflated" prices. This is an obviously less than perfect solution, but goes farther than many other difficult "stretches" to correct a difficult to control situation, in my opinion...

A way that is used to limit this exploit in other games, is to perform an easy to do calculation of a corporation's "credit rating". If the debt/equity ratio is below that of a "B" rating say, (on a "AAA" to "D" credit rating scale), and if a corporation has outstanding loans, then prohibit stock buybacks, (or any other action, such as paying dividends), that drops the corporation's credit rating into dangerous territory. This is reasonable and realistic, because lenders have such provisions written in to their loan covenants in reality. It is also simple to program, and could be done in as little as one line of code, (though not necessarily skillfully nor appropriately).

Generally speaking, if the stock price is ever changed, then there is a way to profitably exploit that fact. I have a whole range of techniques, depending on whether or not I need to move money FROM my main corporation, or TO my main corporation, or even TO or FROM myself, or another controlled corporation. If the price changes, I can make the "right" entity make money!

I could easily start the game with $100, (or less), and wind up with billions, (and control of all the corporations and raw materials), most likely before the first year was out, the way things are now programmed in Cap I, Cap Plus, and Cap II...

Now, if the game rules were changed, so that you could do at most one stock transaction on each game date for each different corporation in the game, while the game speed was halted, then I might become simply an "average" player once again, heheheh!

TraderRaider

[titi82000]

Hi TraderRaider,

I feel the same thing. While we keep the mechanism, as this is a capitalism game, i will always go to make easy money when i need so.. Which if removed, will make me an average player as you say. And that is what I would like.
I like one of your solution about credit rating, because this is realistic, and also independent on whatever you control the company or not. Why not starting with that? Then for the next step, we could address other ways to disable this arbitrage.
What does the team of CapLab think about it?
Cheers,
titi

[keshiba]

When the inflation has reached 100 times (10000%), banks will reissue new banknotes of smaller value (1% of current value), deflating all the currency on the market to make the current figures more manageable under the effect of inflation.

You may take a look at this page: http://www.capitalismlab.com/inflation.html

So when you keep playing the game, the numeric values of prices may go down to a more manageable level.[/quote]

Yes this happens with me around the 95 year mark.

[Solklint]

Does the stockmarket now in caplab show the general price you bought your shares? If you buy more does it affect the price you bought your other shares? You know what i meen..? Like on real stockmarket.

[counting]

Since we are trying to create a more solid financial foundation for the future banking system, I think it's a good time to strength and revisit the loopholes in current stock mechanism. And I was surprised after all these years and many patches a lot of loopholes are still wide open, even with Alternative Stock Sim turned ON.

The one with Alternative Stock OFF, I've reported it in this post, and able to make billions within the first day. There are tones more without Alternative Stock ON, some are not so broken, and fall into cleaver investment strategy, but some are indeed just creating cash out of thin air.
http://www.capitalismlab.com/forum/view ... =13&t=2262

And below is one of the loophole even with Alternative Stock ON, and still be able to to make your corporations billions within the first day

1st day billionaire.JPG (158.16 KiB) Viewed 2638 times

The process is similar to the old method, and not only "burn cash" from your subsidiaries, but "burn through them into massive debts" :
1) Pause the game at day 1, buy a corporation A over 50%,
2) make corporation A issuing enough shares to your own company over 75% and above, as many as possible. Don't mind the negative cash in your own corporation.
3) Using corporation A to buy corporation B just over 50%
4) Using corporation B to buy corporation C just over 50%, if corporation B doesn't have enough cash, issuing its shares to corporation A, but remember not too many just enough.
5) Make corporation C issuing enough shares to corporation B, as much as possible, and make corporation B going into as many debts as possible. So corporation C can accumulate enough cash.
6) When you feel the embezzlement is enough, make Corporation B sells all its corporation C shares to tank its stock price.
6) Using corporation A to buy corporation C's tanked share cheap, over 75%, preferably all the public share. If A runs out of cash, just get more from your own corporation by issuing shares.
7) Corporation A sells all the corporation B share, and merger with C, preferably using cash, but gaining enormously more cash from corporation C's embezzlement.
8) Your own corporation merger with the rich corporation A by issuing share. And with plenty of cash, you can buy out all the shareholders and gain 100% share control.

The amount you will get depends on how many times you repeat issuing shares in step 5 and embezzlement from corporation B, but usually you need to issue at least 20 times to get 1 billion in the end. And since B is heavily in the red, it will go bankrupt immediately the next day, but no matter since all its debts are now your cash.

[Malaras]

wow last post was from jun 2013.... Counting wtheck lol

[counting]

wow last post was from jun 2013.... Counting wtheck lol

This is how long stock market bugs and exploits had been plaguing us. I know too much and have to stay away from touching stock market in normal games, just using stock market to buy in my own company stocks with personal cash, nothing else. Otherwise, once you know the easy way out, it takes the fun out of it.

[kie99]

wow last post was from jun 2013.... Counting wtheck lol

This is how long stock market bugs and exploits had been plaguing us. I know too much and have to stay away from touching stock market in normal games, just using stock market to buy in my own company stocks with personal cash, nothing else. Otherwise, once you know the easy way out, it takes the fun out of it.

Don't set the competitor's start up to low.. Well if you only want to highlight the loophole , then it is ok..

For more fun, set the game difficulty more than 300% with competitor's start up cash, aggressiveness , expertise to VERY High then you will find a lot of challenges.. You won't able find so call the "stock loophole" in this setting..

Further if you set your start capital to very low or low, it will be more challanging..

Juz wondering why the feature at challenge game and custom game is different setting, on challenge game, I only able to buy 1 time a day for share while in custom game, it can be multiply in a day..
Should set as 1 time a day for custom game as well.